Sorry.... Men Are Allowed..oh really!!

[True_Heart2]

<b>I have a question to the administrators in SQU hospital..</b>

Why do you people force the pregnant women who want to attend your hospital for examinations and delivery to sign on an agreement for allowing male doctors to examine them and even attend thier delivery? …and if they refuse to do so, those women won't be accepted as your hospital's patients !!!

<b>Ok</b>..I am aware that the hospital was built to help and train the medical college students in SQU and that this is one of it's main purposes…and I know this rule was issued after so many Omani husbands fought during their wives delivery with some male doctors or trainees, who were required to enter the delivery rooms for training purposes...but still this rule is against the basic HUMAN rights OF HAVING A FREE WILL TO CHOOSE and it can't be justified …

In any civilized country the patients, especially the pregnant women have the right to choose their doctors whom they feel comfortable with …so why this very uncivilized attitude?

If there were no female doctors around or if we have a shortage in female physicians then it can be justified being delivered by a male doctor because there are no other alternatives …but we do have plenty of female doctors so why is this?..this is really disgraceful..

What were you people thinking when you issued this rule? …PLEASE take into account that you are dealing with MUSLIMS and that women in here feel ashamed of being examined or delivered by male doctors …what you people are asking Omani women to accept is really intolerable and unthinkable..

[Incubus1980]

its sad...i had no idea this was going on. this is a very very sad day for muslims, when they decided to enforce this law or rule. <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Neo]

It has nothing to do with Human right. Its our basic cultural and Islamic teaching. Under any circumstances, a male should not allow to see a female private places.

[Invincible]

This is sad indeed. I can understand if they to convince the patient but to reject her? that's too much.

[Smile]

First of all, why would SQUH recruit a male obstetrician or gynaecologist in this Islamic society. Aren't there any female specilised in this field?

[Invincible]

<font color="blue">First of all, why would SQUH recruit a male obstetrician or gynaecologist in this Islamic society. Aren't there any female specilised in this field? <!--color-->[/color]

I see nothing wrong with male gynaecologists, I mean, they can see male patients or foreign patients who dont object to seeing a male doc. I just find it very inappropriate for women to be comfortable around a male doctor when it comes down to private matters. If these docs want to practice, then they should be sent abroad for practice. No female should be forced.

[Panoramic]

B4 I get into this discussion I have a question.

Do we have practicing male Obs and Gyne in oman?
Could anyone name them for me or at least one?
how many omani female Drs go to Obs and Gyne?

[Invincible]

I personally know a couple of Omani women who are gynes. Never heard of a male Omani unless they are currently students.

[Rohit]

and what happens if there are any complications requiring urgent and immediate attention of senior surgeons or pediatricians?

do we leave the woman and the born/unborn child to die while hunting for gender specific doctors?

Many woman died in Afghanistan camps just because people extended this arguement to ALL doctors. So Tragic when help was on hand and resources were available.

In India, the male Sikhs strictly (by religion) do not cut their hair. A senior Sikh leader had a grave illness and required immediate surgery. But the surgery could only be done after shaving his head. Many Sikh politicians raised a bogey of religious fever against the surgery. Result - The guy died.

The same nonsense is also practised by christian sects like the jehovah's witness who are anti surgery (something to do with blood etc.). The US authoriites keep a close watch on many of them and force the medical operations to save patients who are required to do surgery.

it is ill advised to mix religion with medicine. these emotions have a life of their own and often balloon out of control causing great pain (not for the proponents of these ideas) but for the hapless patients who are damned if they did and dead if they didn't.

[RUGOMBO]

Rohit,

You missed this very important paragraph from the original post (True Heart)

If there were no female doctors around or if we have a shortage in female physicians then it can be justified being delivered by a male doctor because there are no other alternatives #8230;but we do have plenty of female doctors so why is this?..this is really disgraceful..

R.

[Shula_B]

What I have heard that the health government does not encourage males to be gynecologists and most of the females doctors change to pediatrics because it is not hard as gynecology. Oman is facing lack of gynecologists.

[Incubus1980]

i know the male doctors are so sakheeef when they get some nice looking female patient......i know because my female friends told me that. i mean to the extent that sometimes they over do the checkup....i mean keep going on and on ...i felt so bad for my friends , and i asked them why dont you go to female doctors and there were like...they don't know any female doctor.....i think Oman really needs more female doctors.

[Jinan]

Its not compulsry for them to sign... during the internship.. medical students have to rotate through every dept of the hospial, and the delivery ward is included as well, u either allow them by being there to examine u and at the time of the delivery or u dont allow them... its nothing to do with whtever u mentioned above.

[Incubus1980]

well i am sure you are right, you are a girl...so tell me have you ever faced any problem like this?

[Love_Wonderer]

I'm not smart enough to post my opinions on this forum... <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[True_Heart2]

Neo
it has something to do with human rights too...because it involves freedom of choice...mind you there are few omani women who dont mind being examined or delivered by male doctors!
i once had a discussion with both an Omani and an Egyptian lady regarding this matter! and they both were in favor of a male then a female!..

Rohit
please read the topic carfullly

RUGOMBO
thank you

[True_Heart2]

Invincible

<blockquote><font class="small"><hr />
I see nothing wrong with male gynaecologists, I mean, they can see male patients or foreign patients who dont object to seeing a male doc

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

yeah exactly!

[True_Heart2]

things like these happens..all the time ...some male doctors behave badly with their female patients without any shame ....disgracing the special relationship between the doctor and the patient and this is also one of the reasons that makes women back off from male doctors

[Love_Wonderer]

Wow...men look at womens crotches while delivering a baby. If they can do that. They can certainly examine a womans crotch. Or am I like way of topic? I dunno. I like talking about womens crotches. Maybe I'm just perverted. Oh well... <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[True_Heart2]

<blockquote><font class="small"><hr />
, u either allow them by being there to examine u and at the time of the delivery or u dont allow them

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
please get your facts right before you debate!!!!
its a fact that patients have to sign...otherwise they do get rejected! so it is compulsory!
it's a fact that many men fought during their wives deliveries....because the trainees tried to force them selves in the ward !!
why do you think this rule was issued in the first place!!

[Rohit]

RUG....

Nope I disagree. You remind me of campers in a forest which is tinder dry because of a drought and there is a strong wind blowing.

These campers are saying - we are just having a small fire for warming our hands.

And when the forest burns down causing immense harm and destruction they say - we did not know it would go out of control.

Any movement to FORCE gender specific doctor will balloon out of control. Today you may say well conditions like - gyno and obs department only, only if female doctors are not available etc etc.

But guess what....the things will catch on like wild fire. go out of control, spread to unintended areas and cause immense harm.

Better not to light the fire in the first place.

[Jinan]

I do get my facts right...

Listen, first of all SQUH is a teaching hosptial.. which means that there are 7th yr medical students around. So u dont expect the admin of the hospital asking their male doctors not to come in for the examination. Plus, it depends who is on duty, if its a male studend then he has to check her and if its a female then its her luck.

[Incubus1980]

listen ppl whatever you say abt rules and regulations i still think women who have to get all checked up inside of them infront of a stranger is 7aram.

[Smile]

Pano,at SQUH the head/Senior of Gynaecology Clinic is a male white-doctor if I'm not mistaken.

Rohit, Its not matter of mixing religion and medicine. By the way Islam does permit female patient receiving treatment from the male doctor and the vice versa but on condition that the situation is critical and no female specialised doctor around. Apart from religous views, it also matter of comfortablity.

[Incubus1980]

well thats true in Islam, if you have no other choice and you are dying and you need food...well you can eat anything i mean anything....just because there is no other way around it....so if the girls have no choice they'll have to go through that....but at the same time we should encourage the females to come into this field maybe give them some incentive...to make it much more comfortable for the females.

[Panoramic]

Smile
Up till 4 weeks ago I could tell you that the ministry of health had a rule that in oman, male Gyna are not allowed to practice.
Shula B mentioned that earlier.
We do have male Gyna but they practice as GP's.
Unless this has changed recently. Ill ask about the Gyna specialist u mentioned working in SQUH.

Regarding female Dr's ( Jinan or Duxck can confirm this). but SQU student were encouraged to specialise in Gynaecology n Obs but its hard to get female Drs specialising in it. If 2-3 from each class went to specialise in that field then we are still short in female Gynaecologists.

As Jinan said SQUH is a <b>teaching hospital.</b>
i.e. its resources are allocated to teach students so they can get the clinical experience.
I think it will be embarrassing if an SQU graduate didnt know how to deliver a baby.

<b>Male Dr Examining female Pvt parts. </b>

In Europe A male Dr will not examine a female patient unless there is a female nurse. This is the same case in oman and it should be known this is better for the Dr. I call a dr who examines a female in the absence of a female nurse (plain stupid) or lacking ethics and manners.

now
How do u think Cardiologists examine female chests?

How do you think an oncologist will examine a females breast?

<b>Regarding it being un Islamic. May I ask why?</b>

Its for teaching purposes its not unethical.
Believe you me, watching a delivery or delivering a baby, the last thing on ur mind will be sexual. And even after you see that amount of blood, among other things, the last thing will be fantasizing about what had happened in the maternity ward.

Finally it can not be against human rights because the right to choose means u should choose another hospital also if you are talking about human rights isnt there a right of a student to get best education and isnt it a right for SQU after having to spend so much on a Specialised hospital, to teach its students properly?

<b>How can you solve it for them?</b>

[Incubus1980]

Pano. you made some very good points but you have to think from the females point of view because they are the one who have to go through all the pain and trauma and sometimes embarassment...and giving birth is not the only thing a Gyno does. if you know what i mean.....a female can go to a gyno for any of her personal problem down there...how abt that? i mean they have to go...but don't know where? female doctor...hmmm rare....if there are...they are not good...or maybe too expensive for them to afford them....just imagine the mental trauma some of those females might go through.

[Smile]

Pano, A very close relative of mine was examined by this white-man Dr. and himself specifically mentioned it, that he is the Senior Doctor and need not to worry as her problem was a complicated issue.

[RUGOMBO]

Rohit,

You can convince many by your argument above does not hold water!!

True Heart said it crystal clear If there were no female doctors around or if we have a shortage in female physicians then it can be justified being delivered by a male doctor because there are no other alternatives, and again she said, but we do have plenty of female doctors so why is this?

Remember, we are a Muslim nation and every family has its own values and acceptance of things, personally I would not allow my wife to be examine by a male Doctor if female Drs were available.

True Heart puts a case here to be discussed and asks reasons why SQU is doing this, which to me puts a fundamental question on our culture and beliefs!

I am a bit surprised by you comparing the Sikh case with this!!! A female patient who is about to deliver and allows a male doctor to examine her in her most private place where female doctors are in abundance!!!

We can't just jump and reach to the stage where we see normal to these type of things and forget our values and culture!
R.

[Jinan]

<blockquote><font class="small"><hr />
In Europe A male Dr will not examine a female patient unless there is a female nurse. This is the same case in oman and it should be known this is better for the Dr. I call a dr who examines a female in the absence of a female nurse (plain stupid) or lacking ethics and manners.



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The same happens here... All ,all doctors ,make sure to have female nurses with them in the room.

Incubus..
I have no probs going to a male gyno

Lets say that there are no female gyno around.. and a woman needs to see one urgently... wht is she going to do ?? die just cuz the doc is male ?? the same wud go for Cardiologists and Oncologists.

[Invincible]

After reading Pano's post, my view has changed a little bit. Fact is SQUH is a teaching hospital, and it is compulsory for all future GP's to rotate in every ward/department for experience. The problem here is that female patients dont really have a choice to choose their doctors, well, first of all, I believe the waiting lists are long sometimes, and secondly, how can patients make decisions when they're admitting themselves to a teaching hospital? If patients make decisions, the whole training programs will be destroyed.



If we dont have a choice to make at SQUH, then we should just simply go to other public or private hospitals and the matter is solved. I personally wouldnt be comfortable for an Omani male doctor to examine me unless he's my uncle (however, I wouldnt want to be examined by any of my male cousins), I wouldnt mind if it was an Indian/Westerner doctor, but with an Omani, I'd feel ashamed if you know what I mean. It may make me sound like a hypocrite but Im just shy around Omani/Arab doctors - dont ask me why and this includes my own male cousin doctors.



Im sure many guys here would prefer being examined by an Indian female doctor than by an Omani female doctor. I guess, there are concerns of confidentiality too. However, for me, it's all about being comfortable. All my life, I've been seeing male doctors, but I've recently noticed how Im far more comfortable with a female doctor. They're more compassionate too <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Special]

Aha, I do agree with Pano. And Invinci said it,



<blockquote><font class="small"><hr />
If we dont have a choice to make at SQUH, then we should just simply go to other public or private hospitals and the matter is solved.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">



The University has to teach its students, and SQUH is the place where they practice what they learn, so they can do it with females who dont mind being examined by a Male gynecologist, so for those who object, then just simply go to other hospitals. I dont think SQUH is the only hospital in town!

[Mary]

Ladies... Muscat Private Hospital has a lady gynacologist that I can recommend.

[Giver]

True_Heart,

<blockquote><font class="small"><hr />

Neo
it has something to do with human rights too...because it involves freedom of choice...mind you there are few omani women who dont mind being examined or delivered by male doctors!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
The unborn child has human rights as well and yet is not in a position to be able to choose for him or herself. The hospital does not wish to be put in position where they have to sit by and watch a Mother or her baby die because the mother refuses to allow a male Doctor to treat her / them. I don't blame them.

[Panoramic]

well Said Giver.
the problem arises when ppl regard an unborn as "less thana person" with no rights.
thats smthn we need to understand.

[Incubus1980]

yea thats why i am against abortion. but i still wouldn't like the idea of a gyno checking up on my wife.

[Love_Wonderer]

I don't know if Abortion is illegal all over the USA or not but if it isn't it should! It ruins womens lives and maybe the guys lives as well. Just isn't a right thing to do. Maybe put the kid into adoption. The nest less stressful one but still very stressful thing to do.

[True_Heart2]

ok guys..just a request.... <b>please read the topic again </b>
because I feel <b>RUGOMBO and Incubus_80 </b> are the only people who are getting my point!…

many of you have mentioned some very good points but PLEASE how many times do I have to repeat my self !!I said it and I say it again...if there were no alternatives then its ok to be examined or delivered by a male doctor! ..
a question to all who are in favor of the rule...tell me would you let a male doctor or medical student examine you or your wife( incase you are a man)? But bare in mind that there are female gynecologist around (BECAUSE that’s the case in SQUH )
My answer would be <b>NO</b> ..
But on the other hand <b>I wouldn't mind being examined by a male doctor..Omani or non-Omani but only under one condition IF there were no female specialists available in that field</b>

[True_Heart2]

Panoramic
I already mentioned that I am aware that SQNH was built to help and train the medical students yes it is a teaching hospital in the first place ….but still that doesn’t give them the right to force women who want to attend the hospital … they should give them a choice..

many patients who want to attend the hospital live in very far away places and the closest hospital to them is SQUH ..so rejecting them may prove to be a fatal risk for both the mothers and the babys ..

regarding private hospitals tell me just how many Omani women do you think can afford them?!
the amount these hospitals charge for the whole examination and the delivery procedures is huge…believe me I know !

<b>So are you implying that freedom of choice is a privilege only rich can afford?.</b> .

Yes students have the right to get proper education but you tell me if those women get rejected then how would they get that? on the contrary at least they will have the opportunity to study their cases after the delivery ..and beside there are plenty of foreign women who don’t mind educating these students!.

[True_Heart2]

you have mentioned the baby's right!!!

So tell me just in which part of what I wrote you felt that I neglected that?
Do I have to repeat my self again and again that if there were no female specialists around then its OK!

As<b>Incubus_80</b> pointed out...in Islam when you feel that you are in a threat and you don’t have a choice then everything and any thing is acceptable.

[boxer9976]

<blockquote><font class="small"><hr />
Under any circumstances, a male should not allow to see a female private places.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

<font color="red"> Neo! if that was the case how do u think reproduction takes place. <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <!--color-->[/color]

[Dabdoob_Al_Helwa]

<img src="/threads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

If a woman needs to go for a medical check up...meaning she needs to see a gynocologist, then she should have the right to say whether she wants to see a male or a female. There are some women who do not mind either way and its their preference. I mean maybe they know a good male gynocologist who they trust, so they go to see them.

Anyway, my point is a woman should be able to decide who she wants analyzing her! Personally i would feel more comfortable visiting a female gynocologist but i heard that male ones are much more gentle! <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Dark Angel]

I think the woman should have the freedom of choice. I don't see anything wrong with a male gyn, but if the woman is uncomfortable with having one, then she should be allowed to ask for a female gyn.

I think the rule is more of a liability issue. I think what the rule is saying is that "there could be a situation where we do not have male gyns. In that case you should accept a male gyn". I'm not too sure of that rule. I mean I understand if it's life threatening. But what if you could wait a day? You could wait for a female gyn to show up. I don't think it's right to force the woman to choose.

[Lulul]

SQU hospital is a university hospital where students can learn and do their training ..if all pregnant women say they want female doctors ..what happens to the male gynalogist. If they want to have the choice to chose between the sexes ..they can go somewhere else. simple
the hospital cant afford to give them the choice.
personally i dont blame them .
lulu

[SweeT]

For Those females who approve seeing by a male
gynocologist , did u ever expereince it , Easy said than
Done! .. a friend of mine expecting her first baby soon
inshallah , she tried SQUH and they asked her to sign and
accept having male Trainees around when she Go for her
antental care or during delivery ..mmmmm Now Just the
thought of it, scared her and made her sooo Uncomfortable
she immediatly registered with MuscaTPH. I don't think its
Easy to have 2 or 3 male Trainees around u while u r being
exaimned with their note books in their hands and the
doctor expalinging to them ur perosnal issues .. Sometimes
a pregnent woman go through things u need to discuss with
ur gyno i can't imagine these issues being discussed
infront of bunch of omani male trainess recording it in
their note books. I agree with TrueHeart woman should have
the choice not all woman mind being seen by a male gyno as
I could See from the replies.

However If male Gyno is whats available am sure nobody
wanna risk their or their baby's life , they would
definitly settle for it. By nature most women are shy <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> or
maybe the one i know , culture lives within Us we can't
just ignore it in the name of education for those who don't
mind volunteering they can serve education very well.

[Dabdoob_Al_Helwa]

Give these poor male students a chance. They are trying to learn how to be good professional doctors and I think that the only way doctors become GOOD doctors is through experience. The university hospital will ofcourse have training students there so if you dont like that and im sure EVERYONE knows that since it is a "university" hospital, then you shouldnt have wasted the time to go there in the first place...simple!

[Dark Angel]

Boxer,

Helloooo! You know the storks bring the baby! <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Panoramic]

True heart I understand your points.
we agree on the principles that no female will be comfortable with a male Dr examining her.
let us also say that we agree that when there is a shortage in femaly Gyna then a male may intrvene.
we also agree that SQUH is a teaching hospital and there is a crucial point here if i may say, if we give the lady a choice, i.e. she is free to refuse being seen by a male trainee, or student how many will actually agree to it?

Now i have to emphasis the point that you are 100% correct to say a woman should be given the choice.
not only a woman I will add any patient for any reason should have that right.
That i can not discuss and if i did I will debate in favor of the patient.

but SQUH is a special case in this discussion for many reasons we already talked about, so I wouldnt repeat myself or the others.

Now you brought a very good point regarding the distance from any other hospitals. and as you should, it is true and as far as I know that the nearest hospital to the SQUH, will be the royal( correct me if im wrong)

Now
lets differentiate the 2 issues.
1) a pregnant woman should be forced to sign that incase a female specialist is not available a male Dr will act in order not to jepordise the life of fetous or the mother, but ofcourse the mother comes first.
I think we wont disagree here.

2) trainees, do we allow them or not?
do we give the mother the choice or not?
It is tricky because
in favor would say:
1) SQUH is a teaching hospital
2) they spend huge amounts of money
3) if we give the omen a choice we wont get anyone agreeing
among other points already mentioned above.

you are against it because
1) its against the patients right
2) there is no alternative to SQUH.
among other points.

so let me get down to this point.

SQUH management sought the best solution and that is what they came up with.

what is the alternative you are offering for Students who should be trained?
keep in mind that its not about omani/non-omani women because even non omani. non muslim women feel uncomfrotable being touched by a male Dr.

sorry for the long post.

[Tigress]

<blockquote><font class="small"><hr />
The problem here is that female patients dont really have a choice to choose their doctors,
<img src="/threads/images/graemlins/anim_nono.gif" alt="" />
For what 2 choose Who will treat her !
Male/female Doctor are the same ..s/he doing his/her JOB .

Patinet should Think ..how to get well dosent matter who will Treat her .

Peace <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/cool2.gif" alt="" />