DO you think the USA has hidden Agenda towards this war?

[Neo]

Listen, as much as I want to belive that the US intentions are pure. But everyday I have this feeling there must be thereanother reason, especially after seeing millions of people protesting against this war and yet the American Government stand with thier position and also no wanting to give the inspectors more or time.!!!!

[Dragon]

<b>DO you think the USA has hidden Agenda towards this war?</b>

A hidden Agenda? Man Neo, we rated you with 5 stars the other day? Do they actually need to hide, with all that humilating submission, they see clearly all over the region. It's no hidden Agenda no more, one can even state it just by two terms to spare time and much reading:

<b>I. Establishing the Greater Israel.
II. And Sharing the World's Leadership with her.</b>

And for history, we mention this; only you people of the region could either stop this or allow it to happen. We feel the many decided for the second option. God bless the Weaks!

[hfsc_peace]

In 1945 Douglas Macarthur was given a private nation to rule in a defeated Japan. He WROTE their constitution. They are free, rich, stable.

Now no one knows what's going to happen, and the forces that would wish a Japan situation in Iraq to FAIL are manifest. How UNSTABLE would KSA be with a huge democracy next door? What would the 50% of the population in Iran under 25 make of such a situation? But those who wish this (for a freer IRaq to fail) also wish ill for the Iraqi people. We may get there and be jeered, or cheered. WHO KNOWS? We don't.

The people who are buying into the oil thing are just NOT in touch with america. The americans who believe this just HATE bush for being on the earth..nothing to do with politics (about 8-10%). About that percentage btw felt the same way about FDR on 12/8/41 and many of that ilk STILL claim he knew the Japanese were coming and did nothing so that we could get in the war. So my point is that there is always such a whacko residual here. God love'em.

The inspections have had 12 years.
<font color="red"> <b>TWELVE YEARS</b> <!--color-->[/color]
Seven Thousand inpectors in 1995 couldn't find his biological weapons, his SON IN LAW had to defect and tell us, and THEN they fessed up (and this material remains unaccounted)

The inspections have merely PROVED to americans that he has no intention of complying. He is in effect saying 'go anywhere you like, youll never find them, niener neiner'. These same americans sense the clear and present danger he represents by handing off a ship container full of anthrax, ricin, or smallpox and getting it to anyone willing to get into NY Harbor, or SF harbor, or Boston, or dump the ricin into the NYC water supply. THAT is why Bush is PROPERLY obstinate. HIS job is to make the american people safe. NOT ANYONE ELSE.

A few weeks still remain. Time enough if Iraq wishes to take the path South Africa did. Not another minute is needed. Saddam has had 12 years to show what he wants.
HE has.

[Invincible]

Hidden Agenda?

Yes in my own humble opinion. I say this for many reasons, first of all, there's no concrete evidence against Saddam that has been justified as of yet. I believe the whole world feels that Bush's administration has a hidden agenda except for the US itself. Attacking Iraq will not solve anything except costing the lives of many innocent lives. Many american soldiers will get hurt in that process too. I dont see why a war like this should start that will obviously not solve anything except build more hatred and anger towards America.

It's not the Arabs who think that the US has a hidden agenda, the Europeans and even the British public feel the same way too.

It doesnt matter what kind of a horrible Tyrant Saddam may be, and sorry to say this, but it isnt America's job to save the world. Their job is to protect and serve their own ppl. There's no proof that Saddam had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks, in fact, it makes me wonder why there isnt anything that's convincing as to who may have committed to those disgraceful acts. It's wrong, and I feel sorry for the many lives that were lost but then again, attacking Iraq isnt going to solve the problem. Its just goint to encourage and give a good reason to all the phanatics around the world to plot something horrible against America.

Why not play a little psychology instead of throwing bombs and putting the US citizens at life threat? why not resolve differences? why not find out first the reasons why America was attacked? why not take things step by step first instead of provoking the world that the US is super power and will attack Iraq even against the UN's wish.

[mutant]

The whole thing is about world domination. Nothing else. We should not forget that the same US helped Saddam build those weapons in the first place to attack Iran. Now Iran is in the background Iraq has been brought to the forefront. It is so clear after seeing how they are acting. They are doing nothing but taking advantage of people's feeling of insecurity. It is more than clear. Also consider this. I was watching this BBC program recently where a journalist pointed out that the republicans were using stickers on theior cars which say things like "Kick his ass, get the gas".

The whole thing is nothing but a systematic extermination of our people. I don't support Saddam, never have, but I have to sympathatise with the Iraqis.

The Americans are making it look as if they want to save the Iraqi people free them ahh ooh blah blah aaaaghhhh. But this whole thing is nothing more than a dictatorship change. After the war, it is clear that a pro US government will be installed. Even if 99% of the Iraqi popluation was anti American, it is clear that the 1%will take control. I challenge the Americans to hold elections in Iraq with a strong anti American, Islamist party in the running. I DARE them.

[Rob]

Neo, I don't think there is any hidden agenda.
I think it has a lot to do with pride and ego.
Lets always remember that the Iraqi's are probably en masse in favour of getting Saddam out, although no one could proove that easily.
I believe the driving force is that George Bush Jnr, wants to get rid of Saddam before his tenure as President expires, and cant bear the thought of Saddam still being there, sticking up a finger to both Bushes.
I do not believe that oil is the driving force.

[Ugly_Truth]

A skunk is a skunk.

Saddam has them, and Blix has said though he has seen nothing, Saddam has not proven that he has destroyed them. In other words, there are simply tons of the material unaccounted for.

12 years to hide them? Yep, can be done. Empty canisters misplaced? I don't think so. Give me an hour, and I'll have those canisters (missiles) filled.

There is no hidden agenda. This is for the security of THIS nation. We are going through the UN, but, I think it is proving itself crippled by politics, instead of using politics to resolve conflicts.

[WT_Sherman]

Assumptions and the opinions of a bunch of OTHERS are irrelevant compared to ur safety. PERIOD.

hfsc_peace and I are in med research ... give us a van and about $150,000 and we'll wipe out your nation, and unless you know what van to look for, we'll drive it right to your door while we're doing it.

Got the picture?

This ain't the ego of Bush
This ain't the pride of americans
This ain't stock value of Chevron

Saddam Hussein has the motive, the means and the will to KILL AMERICANS HERE IN AMERICA.

After 9/11 this is intolerable. Iraq must come off the board. If Saddam wants to leave and someone who will not threaten the safety of american replaces him, FINE. We stand down, and move the ships and men EAST ABOUT 5000 MILES

Hey KIM, CAN YOU HEAR US?

The way things were done b4 9/11 are over. This is the new reality. DEAL WITH IT.

I don't like it one [censored] bit myself, but that doesn't matter. This is what IS. We recognize it. DO you?

[MiddleEast]

I suggest to you Neo to read my topic.

<a href="http://www.omanforum.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=Board=politicsNumber=1750page=0vi ew=collapsedsb=5o=fpart=1" target="_blank">http://www.omanforum.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=Board=politicsNumber=1750page=0vi ew=collapsedsb=5o=fpart=1</a>

[mutant]

See how inconsiderate these Americans are. No doubt they are hated despised all over the Muslim world. For their percieved sense of security, they are ready to kill maim thousands of others. Innocents or not, they don't care. Should we bother what happens to them???. Absolutely not. After 9/11, almost every Muslim leader worth the name condemned the attacks. They shouldn't have bothered.

[Neo]

Let me get this straight. Millions of people around the world feel and sense that the American Government has hidden agendas and while you members don't?.

Guys, I know its your country and you are you being patriotic and all, but come on, enough is enough. Its clear as crystal, any sane man can see that there must be something behind all this, and WMD is not it. There is a moment where a person must admit and not debate blindly. Your government have something in their sleeves and it sure aint the WMD

[Incubus1980]

well i definately think that US has some sort of agenda, otherwise they wouldn't pur their peoples life in risk and go to war with Iraq. basically in short....bring the iraqi govt. down...put a puppet govt. and control Quwait and Iraq for petrol...and most of all get closer to Iran and KSA , for you know in near future they might have to go to war with them too....so what better place to be than have a base of their own without any constraints....like they have in Saudia.....if they are in Iraq they can basically do everything they want! its all abt the Geographical significance of Iraq. that was the first reason why they put Saddam Hussain in Power.

[Dark Angel]

This isn't altruistic at all. Which nation doesn't watch out for its self interest?

Sure, there might be a hidden agenda... But as far as the moral ground is concerned, I don't have to say who's higher...

[Incubus1980]

True very True

[Karim]

No hidden agenda you say?

I find that a tad bit hard to believe.

On the one hand, Saddam has never threatened the US, nor is he capable of posing a threat to the US. He has no air force to be contended with, no ballistic weapon capabilities, limited WMD warheads arming capabilities, no WMD production infrastructure, and above all a chocking embargo around him, and with more than half the country is off limit to his fixed winged aircrafts.

Telling us that there was a 12-year inspection is a lie. There was a 4-year inspection that was halted, and then resumed few months ago. During the first inspection round, almost all chemical and biological weapon grade material and precursors agents were destroyed, and all production facilities were also destroyed, and an embargo was put in place to stop any capability building attempts.

Unlike their nuclear cousins, chemical and biological weapons have very limited shelf lives, they expire after few months of storage, thus, to enable maintaining large stocks of the stuff you need to sustain a large production capability, and this production capability was not found during this last round of quite exhaustive inspection.

Mr. Powell tried to make us believe that Iraq has developed truck mounted mobile production facilities, thus was able to elude the inspectors. But Mr. Powell did not tell us how Iraq got hold of the fermenters and reactors, and the specialized tubes and pipes, and pumps and precursor agents and decontamination equipment and all the multitude of specialized equipment needed to make WMDs?

Secondly, chemical and biological weapon grade material need specialized storage places, and these storage places must be near roads or railways with quick links to launching areas like missile sites or shell arming sites, or artillery units. All probable area where these WMDs could be stored were visited by UN inspectors, who used ground penetration radars to detect any underground storage facilities, nothing was found.

Iraq was, and still is, under very close satellite reconnaissance. Building any underground bunkers or storage facilities was certain to have been caught on one of those satellites, and it is just a matter of passing the coordinates of those sites to the UN for them to inspect them, none of this happened.

The only satellite images shown by Mr. Powell were those of the rocket engine testing ground, and the decontamination vehicle behind an alleged mobile WMD production facility. You will have decontamination vehicle for two reasons only. During risky production runs, or when you are destroying WMDs. On their detailed response to the US allegations, the Iraqis have indicated, with evidence, that during that time the satellite image was taken, and on those coordinates, the Iraqis were destroying precursors for anthrax, and that destruction was logged and submitted to the UN at the time, and later on verified by the UN.

The only viable argument the US has is that Iraq is yet to account for some missing warheads and stockpiles of precursor agents and weapon grade materials. If this is the only argument the US wants to use to attack Iraq, then it is a very lame one indeed. This effort should be aimed somewhere else, namely North Korea.

North Korea has a known nuclear weapon program, and posses at least two bombs, and has just expelled all IAE inspectors, and has tested a ballistic missile that can hit most of the US, and you want to tell me that Iraq is a bigger threat than North Korea?

The only difference between Iraq and North Korea is not just O I L. North Korea is a bigger threat than Iraq.

[hfsc_peace]

24 B-1's to within a few hours travel time to North Korea? Did you miss that? ANd a task force has been diverted from the west coast

Americans cannot PROVE we have no hidden agenda until AFTER. When/if Saddam blows his oil wells RIGHT AWAY (and who will that punish) we will CERTAINLY try (as we did in kuwait) to fix that quick.. since that will help to pay to restore Iraq (not from this war, but from Saddam). But that is not our grabbing the oil, either.

I notice that many of you feel that if millions of people believe something, that confers reality, that it is so. This is silly. If everyone stood side to side to say the the sky was green it would make no difference to ONE MAN WITH AN OSCILLOSCOPE.

When we attacked the Taliban there were cries from muslims worldwide about oil, gas, pipelines the grubby greedy americans were after as well. Afghanistan HAS signed a pipline construction agreement, but not with us.


We americans may get a 'patriotic' feeling, but I believe you are VERY GREATLY CULTURALLY MISTAKEN in thinking this is why we say what we do. Think of this as Febuary 1942 in american minds. This is a worldwide war to RID this planet of the people who plan, finance, carry out, support, transport, and succor to those who have launched the kind of slaughter which occurred on 9/11. FOr those of you who say Saddam has never threatened the USA... search on Ramzi Youssef, a paid agent of Iraq. Saddam may be evil, but he is not so stupid as to threaten the US directly..no for him the best pleasure would be a FREIGHTER FILLED WITH ANTHRAX CARRYING THE FLAG OF <font color="red"> <b>IRAN</b> <!--color-->[/color] blowing up in New York Harbor.

And for those of you who say that all this will only create more problems, you may be right..in the short term.

<b>If you were HERE you would know just how truly SILLY the idea of oil being the reason is.</b>

[franz_liebkin]

Zey are after ze <font color="red"> <b>SAND</b> <!--color-->[/color]


Vere is ROMMEL ? !!!!

[old_n_grumpy]

Karim,
Probably one reason Saddam has embraced anthrax as a weapon is its virtually unlimited shelf life.

According to New Scientist: Anthrax spores are tough, fairly easy to culture and have a long shelf-life: spores seized from a World War One German spy targeting allied pack animals in Norway were revived after 80 years. They also survive delivery via bombs, shells or sprays better than many other pathogens.

See at: <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/bioterrorism/bioterrorism_anthraxfaq.jsp" target="_blank">http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/bioterrorism/bioterrorism_anthraxfaq.jsp</a>

That flaw pretty much shoots your argument down in flames.

[Brasco]

"Assumptions and the opinions of a bunch of OTHERS are irrelevant compared to ur safety. PERIOD."

I believe Hamas and Islamic Jihad etc. would tend to agree...

[Brasco]

"Saddam Hussein has the motive, the means and the will to KILL AMERICANS HERE IN AMERICA."

I would question all of those assumptions. Particularly the latter-most one. Where has it ever been remotely demonstrated that Saddam Hussein has the WILL to kill Americans in America.

That is extremely paranoid.

[Smedley_Butler]

that there's a moral equivalence between those who purposefully target women and children as a strategy, and the USA?


Would you?

Not a bad shot at it though, son

[hfsc_peace]

For starters

[Calkoon]

.

[Calkoon]

Smedley Butler, is there a moral equivelant between those that sell arms to terrorist that murder women and Children and the terrorist them selves??

[hfsc_peace]

Really.

You don't answer, only ask ?

[Smedley_Butler]

Are you saying that supplying weapons to have people outnumbered 20-1, threatened by all around them except Egypt and Jordan with ABSOLUTE DESTRUCTION AND SLAUGHTER, who were invaded (despite the hallowed UN) the day they came into existance, who are held not just to ridicule by those who threaten their lives, but also as less than human, are you saying that helping these people stay alive and keep a 12 mile wide country intact is terrorism? Are you sayin' that?

[mutant]

No what we are saying is that arming a country which has terrorised a small poor nation has plans to create a greater version of itself, by invading other nations robbing them of thier lands threatening them with ABSOLUTE DESTRUCTION SLAUGHTER is terrorism.

[Dark Angel]

Robbing them?

Let's assume I am walking down a dark street. I know that there are some unscrupulous individuals who are in posession of one or both of the follwing a) sharp, shiny, thin and long objects and b) long sort-of shiny, partly hollow metal objects that shoot out smaller metal objects. I also know where these individuals are hiding. I am certain that they will attack me because it benefits them monetarily. I have in my posession, a long sort-of shiny, partly hollow metal object that shoots our smaller metal objects.

Call me crazy, but I'll shoot the crap out of those guys who are out to get me. When you know your existence is threatened, you tend to take pre-emptive action. You are naive if you say that Israel was never in danger of being attacked.

[Calkoon]

Butler, you need to get back into reality. Egypt and Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel........ How is Israel threatened with ABSOLUTE DESTRUCTION AND SLAUGHTER..!!

IT'S 2003 BOY WAKE UP.....!!!

Even if Israel were threatened by Jordan and Egypt, why kill innocent Palestinian children and women??


YES, There is almost certianly a moral equivelant between those that SELL ARMS TO TERRORIST and the TERRORIST them selves....!!!

[Brasco]

"that there's a moral equivalence between those who purposefully target women and children as a strategy, and the USA?


Would you?"

Absolutely, I would. And I have on many occasions on this forum said as much.

Targeted or not targeted (I have only the US government to believe on that one and their track record on honesty is not the best), How many innocent people have been killed by Al Qaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and how many by the US?

I don't have the figures, but I will wager that the US comes out top dog when it comes to killing innocent human life.

I am sure if you give those "terrorists" some daisy cutters, F16's, Apaches, cruise missiles, and a few nukes as a deterrent, they will be more than happy to change their strategy of deliberately killing innocent people.

No matter that they will end up killing more because of the power of these weapons. But hey, never mind, because at least they are not TARGETING those innocents...

The US cannot claim the moral high ground in any way.

But if it makes you feel better to believe so...

[hfsc_peace]

than anyone else, but I think they win the worldwide prize... I have to look it up. No promises, and I 'm sure we'll fight over the sources.


You say dead is dead and so what.

However, what you are saying is, 'if it is EXPEDIENT to do so, let's target women and children'. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Just last week Hamas took out a tank, and killed the IDF soldiers in it. Did they run up to it with bare hands? NO
Did they attack it with rifles? NO. They THOUGHT of a way to conduct a RIGHTEOUS attack on a military target and succeeded. No HAMAS lives were lost in the attack. They conducted a similar attack on an Israeli patrol boat last year as well.

It's just EASIER to blow up a cafeteria at a university. Or blow up a pizza parlor, <b> or blow up a 85 old people praying to the SAME God over their being set free from 400 years of slavery</b>, and if your INTENT is to kill old people, women and children, then your strategy IS terror.

You argue for the easy route. Devoid of a level playing field, you will choose to kill women and children? Give me an F-16 and an M-1 or I will kill your children, because I can?

Please don't come back with an argument which says the IDF shoots children. Stick to this. Hamas has PROVEN they can conduct MILITARY GUERILLA operations successfully against the best army in the middle east. Why shouldn't they STICK to it and RE-LEGITIMIZE THEMSELVES AND THE ENTIRE MOVEMENT?

If AMERICANS felt that way, that there WAS no difference.... I wonder what the world would be like? <b>Qandahar would be a glass covered HOLE, and OBL's ashes floating around the world. That would have been the first 30 seconds.</b>

You expect more from the USA. So do we.

[WT_Sherman]

<b>The difference</b>
Pentagon Leaning Against Use Of E-Bomb Against Iraq
Thu Feb 20 2003 10:16:46 ET

The U.S. military has developed a weapon that can permanently disable electrical and telecommunications systems and has debated the possibility of using it in any military assault against Baghdad, the WALL STREET JOURNAL reported on Thursday.

MORE

The new weapon -- known as the 'e-bomb,' for the high-velocity electromagnetic pulses it discharges -- hasn't yet been tested in battle. But some midlevel Air Force commanders have said that using such a weapon, which was long in development but veiled in secrecy, would give the U.S. a decisive initial advantage in a war with Iraq.

Top Pentagon and military-service officials are leaning against using the e-bomb, though.

They are concerned its use could alienate the Iraqi populace by crippling Baghdad's phone and electrical systems and, hence, the city's hospital and emergency-services infrastructure.

Developing...

<a href="http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3.htm</a>

but he changes pretty fast on the headline page

[Brasco]

"It's just EASIER to blow up a cafeteria at a university. Or blow up a pizza parlor, or blow up a 85 old people praying to the SAME God over their being set free from 400 years of slavery, and if your INTENT is to kill old people, women and children, then your strategy IS terror."

Intent is for God to know and to judge. We mortals can only look at results and analyze.

In the final analysis, Hamas etc.. are willing to accept the killing of innocents to achieve their objectives. This enters into their calculations before an attack.

Similarly, the US are willing to accept the killing of innocents (but on a greater scale I would argue) in order to achieve their objectives. This enters into their calculations before an attack. The US propaganda machine likes to describe these as "unintentional". But there is nothing unintentional about it. The US military planners have a good idea of likely casulaties for a given attack, and they either accept or not. If it is in their calculations then the innocent dead are intentional.

What is the difference?