Did Muhammad (saw) Write the Quran?

[Alhamask]

There are many more famous footballers today, probably more in the future. It is possible some might turn up greater than Pele.

We also see a large number of boxers in the world today, probably many more in the future. It is possible some might turn up greater than Ali.

The world has a very large number of writers today, probably more in the future. There is a possibility that some might become more famous than Mrs. Mary.

I don’t even know how many rich people are there on earth today, but plenty of them and possibly more in the future. It is possible some might become wealthier & more successful than Warren Buffet.

Do you agree or disagree to all these statements?

[Dark Angel]

Yes, I agree, that is entirely possible.

[Alhamask]

So people can compete and become famous footballers, famous boxers, famous writers and famous rich people, etc, etc.

Do you agree with this statement??

[shabeebcool]

Dear,

Firstly, i would like to point out that (exactly towards your question) Prophet Mohammed PBUH did not write the Quran. He was an "illetrate". did not know how to Write at all.
so that explains your questions.

Now explaining deeply, these verses of Quran where brought down to Prophet PBUH by the Holy Angel Jibreel (Gabreal) from Allah. Prophet PBUH just merely recited these verses and his followers learned them. By the time Prophet Mohammed PBUH died, he had recited plenty of verses to his disciples. (remember- still no Quran as of such was formed- it was jus lots of verses). The Khalifas (leaders) who followed the Prophet PBUH later formed these verses into a book know as the QURAN.

I know you will still have doubts. But please let me know what exactly you have in mind. I will do a research and let you know if it is beyond my knowledge. But please treat this conversation with high importance. Religious matters should be treated likewise all the time.

Regards.

[Calkoon]

The Quran was revealed at a time when Arabic peotry was at it's best. In fact the best peotry was hanged inside the Kaaba in Mecca.

The Arabs then with their pure language and great enimity of the Prophet duing the the early days of revelation, couldn't come up similar verses to the Quran.

There were some Arabs that produced very similar verses as Dark Angel pointed out above. But those are all cut-n-paste with words changed with different words and they are all written in exactly the same style as the Quran. So they can't be considered better at the most.

The true challenge is to write similar verse and then have followers.

[dostoevskydr]

The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. It appears that the people who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'an. What is meant by surah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?

The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan's Translation):

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]

And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

Abdur Rahim Green mentions that:

These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.

Read here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...le/ijaz.html#1

[Dark Angel]

Alhamask,

(sigh) Yes.

Dark Angel added 1 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

dostoevsky,

That's entirely subjective and everyone can say "Oh no but it's not really like it". The Quran being "revealed" is a matter of faith. But practically speaking, it was "written" just like any other holy book.

[Alhamask]

Let's call this inconsistence # one. Muhammad was a human being just like you, just like me, just like any other human being. Do you agree???

Yes, I agree Muhammad is a human being just like any other.

Dark Angel, I will look into the links but please can you allow me to complete my point first - I haven't made it yet?

Dark Angel,

Pele, the retired footballer, is widely accepted as one of the greatest footballers of all time. But he is just a human being, just like you, just like me, just like any other. Do you agree??

Dark Angel,
Muhammed Ali was a boxing star. He rocked the boxing world with his magic punches in the ring and is well documented in modern history. But he is just a human being, just like you, just like me, just like any other human being. Do you agree??

South African Mrs. Mary Faulkner is a very famous writer. The Guinness Book of World Records ranks her as one of history’s most prolific novelists. She wrote around 904 books in total! Yet she is just another human being, just like you, just like me, just like any other human being.

Warren Buffet is one of the world’s most successful investors of our time. There is no need to say more about him! Yet again he is just another human being, just like you, just like me, just like any other human being.

Do you agree?? Please care to respond with “agree” or “disagree.” Otherwise you will not be allowing me to make my point.

Are you RETARDED? I already said YES.

There are many more famous footballers today, probably more in the future. It is possible some might turn up greater than Pele.

We also see a large number of boxers in the world today, probably many more in the future. It is possible some might turn up greater than Ali.

The world has a very large number of writers today, probably more in the future. There is a possibility that some might become more famous than Mrs. Mary.

I don’t even know how many rich people are there on earth today, but plenty of them and possibly more in the future. It is possible some might become wealthier & more successful than Warren Buffet.

Do you agree or disagree to all these statements?

Yes, I agree, that is entirely possible.

So people can compete and become famous footballers, famous boxers, famous writers and famous rich people, etc, etc.

Do you agree with this statement??

Alhamask, (sigh) Yes.

Dark Angel,

Given the fact that Pele is a famous footballer and many more people walked his path to football fame and succeeded, (this is proof that a human can challenge another human.)

And the fact that Ali is a famous boxer and many more boxers walked Ali’s road to become successful boxers, (this is proof that a human can challenge another human.)

And the fact that Mrs. Mary is a famous writer and many more writers walked her road to become successful writers, (this is proof that a human can challenge another human.)

And the fact that Warren Buffet is a rich famous investor and many more people successfully walked his road, (this is proof that a human can challenge another human).

And the fact that Muhammad the Prophet, was just a human being like all the above, and because of this there is absolutely no reason why another human being cannot challenge him at a human level and succeed!!!

And finally taking into account the fact that you claim Muhammad wrote the Quran (which all Muslims accept & follow today. This was since the first day of the Quran was ever recited to people),

Can you now, you Dark Angel, challenge Muhammad (after all he was just a human being!), and produce one Aya (verse) of your own, to the like of the Quran that Muhammad left behind?

It should meet the standard of the Quran which Muhammad left behind so that all Muslims in the world today (and the future generations of Muslims to come) can accept & follow your Aya like the way they all Muslims follow only ONE Quran which Muhammad left behind over 1400 years ago.

Go ahead please and show it to us.

And it has to be in Arabic language, all but we ask is just one Aya.

Then tell us the initial reason for your Aya,
Tell us its logical meaning,
Tell us whether or not it is a Muhkamaat type or a Mutashabihaat type, and prove it!
Tell us the Islamic accomplishment your Aya aims to achieve,
Tell us its virtues,

Tell us the best time is to recite it; during the day or during the night and WHY?

The Quran which Muhammad left behind, and followed by all Muslims from Muhammad’s time to the present day, has got its own unique method of recitation, so we also request you to produce your OWN method of recitation for your challenging Aya.

Dark Angel, We are waiting……

[Dark Angel]

Alhamask,

I already post that link:

http://suralikeit.com

That has suras that follow the same structure as those in the Quran. But even then that is such a subjective statement. The idea behind that statement in the Quran is more than just the simple challenge of producing a verse like those in the Quran. What the challenge actually is, is to provide an ideology that can attract followers just like the Quran. That can have people believe in something other than the Quran. For that, you only need to look at newer religions:

Mormonism,
Bah'ai
Scientology

Merit or no merit aside, these are religions with followers. Your logic is also completely flawed. Since you've already stated that the Quran is the end-all and be-all, you are basically stating that there is nothing else out there. So you won't even consider something that could challenge it.

Therefore your statement doesn't prove anything. Furthermore, it doesn't do anything to address any of those links I posted which shows how the Quran borrowed from so many different sources (like the other semitic religions).

[Alhamask]

Alhamask,

I already post that link:

http://suralikeit.com

That has suras that follow the same structure as those in the Quran. But even then that is such a subjective statement. The idea behind that statement in the Quran is more than just the simple challenge of producing a verse like those in the Quran. What the challenge actually is, is to provide an ideology that can attract followers just like the Quran. That can have people believe in something other than the Quran. For that, you only need to look at newer religions:

Mormonism,
Bah'ai
Scientology

Merit or no merit aside, these are religions with followers. Your logic is also completely flawed. Since you've already stated that the Quran is the end-all and be-all, you are basically stating that there is nothing else out there. So you won't even consider something that could challenge it.

Therefore your statement doesn't prove anything. Furthermore, it doesn't do anything to address any of those links I posted which shows how the Quran borrowed from so many different sources (like the other semitic religions).

If you cannot address (and you shall not address, no one ever did, no one ever will) the request in my post above, then we have nothing further to discuss, but I will repeat the request just one more time:
---------------------------

Can you now, you Dark Angel, challenge Muhammad (after all he was just a human being!), and produce one Aya (verse) of your own, to the like of the Quran that Muhammad left behind?

It should meet the standard of the Quran which Muhammad left behind so that all Muslims in the world today (and the future generations of Muslims to come) can accept & follow your Aya like the way all Muslims follow only ONE Quran which Muhammad left behind over 1400 years ago.

Go ahead please and show it to us.

And it has to be in Arabic language, all but we ask is just one Aya.

Then tell us the initial reason for your Aya,
Tell us its logical meaning,
Tell us whether or not it is a Muhkamaat type or a Mutashabihaat type, and prove it!
Tell us the Islamic accomplishment your Aya aims to achieve,
Tell us its virtues,

Tell us the best time is to recite it; during the day or during the night and WHY?

The Quran which Muhammad left behind, and followed by all Muslims from Muhammad’s time to the present day, has got its own unique method of recitation, so we also request you to produce your OWN method of recitation for your challenging Aya.

[Dark Angel]

If you cannot address (and you shall not address, no one ever did, no one ever will) the request in my post above, then we have nothing further to discuss, but I will repeat the request just one more time:

I knew you were going to come back with this. See, the point is it doesn't matter what I say since you're always going to say that my example doesn't work (strange that you haven't comment on http://suralikeit.com). By the way, repeating your (flawed) question over and over again doesn't work.

See, you are proposing the theory that the Quran was revealed because:

a) it says so in the Quran
b) apparently no one can come up with anything like it (but even what that means is not agreed upon by muslim commentators)

none of those are valid. So let me tell you this again. Asking me your flawed question over and over again is not going to prove anything. First of all, I'm not an islamic scholar and I know absolutely nothing about arabic. But I am qualified enough to point out inconsistencies when I see it (simple logic). Anyway, what is even stranger is that this argument started out with inconsistencies in the Quran, which abound.

You claim that I didn't address your questions. Err... but I did. Maybe it's because you don't understand English, or maybe it's because you deliberately wish not to read what I have written. But asking your question over and over again after I have responded to it, doesn't prove anything.

Now I'm pretty sure you're going to come back with something like "Since you couldn't answer my question it proves that the Quran is revealed". Which is pretty laughable, because this is not the only line of argument which shows that the Quran wasn't revealed.

[Alhamask]

I'm not an islamic scholar and I know absolutely nothing about arabic.

You have to be 100% sure of what you are talking about when it comes to matters like Faith in God.

You have to be 100% independent of both claims; (1) The Claim that the Quran is the word of God, (2) The Claim it was written by Mohammed,

and look at both claims together, if you are truly willing to figure out which of these two is correct!

Your confession of having ZERO background of the Arabic language is further testimony to my repeated argument that you do not understand… !!!

Every non Muslim that has sunk deep in the Arabic language and studied the Quran ends up confirming the Quran's unmatched eloquence:

".....the rhetoric and rhythm of the Arabic of the Quran are so characteristic, so powerful, so highly emotive, that any version whatsoever is bound by the nature of things to be but a copy of the glittering splendor of the original"
Arthur Arberry, The Koran interpreted, p.24

"......the Makkans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding miracle." H A R Gibb, Islam - A Historical Survey, 1980, Oxford University press, p.28.

"The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it." Alfred Guillaume, Islam, 1990 (Reprinted), Penguin Books, pp. 73-74

[Antar]

I have noticed a repetition of attack to Alhamask not understanding English. Ok so Mr. DA, let us firstly start by what does REVEAL mean;

Main Entry:	reveal
Part of Speech:	verb
Definition:	disclose, tell
Synonyms:	acknowledge, admit, affirm, announce, avow, betray, break the news, bring out into open, bring to light, broadcast, come out with, communicate, concede, confess, declare, divulge, explain, expose, get out of system, give away, give out, give the low-down, impart, inform, leak, let cat out of the bag, let fall, let on, let out, let slip, make known, make plain, make public, notify, proclaim, publish, put cards on table, report, talk, tell, unfold, utter

You said,

"Which is pretty laughable, because this is not the only line of argument which shows that the Quran wasn't revealed"

If you are claiming that Qur'an was NOT revealed, how do you explain or to put it in your perspective, how do you understand the following verses?

From Surat Al Ma'edah

5:59] Say, "O people of the scripture, do you not hate us because we believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed before us, and because most of you are not righteous?"
[5:60] Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of GOD: those who are condemned by GOD after incurring His wrath until He made them (as despicable as) monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."
[5:61] When they come to you, they say, "We believe," even though they were full of disbelief when they entered, and they are full of disbelief when they leave. GOD is fully aware of everything they conceal.

[Dark Angel]

You have to be 100% sure of what you are talking about when it comes to matters like Faith in God.

You have to be 100% independent of both claims; (1) The Claim that the Quran is the word of God, (2) The Claim it was written by Mohammed,

You have to be 100% sure of what you are talking about when it comes to matters like Faith in God.

You have to be 100% independent of both claims; (1) The Claim that the Quran is the word of God, (2) The Claim it was written by Mohammed,

and look at both claims together, if you are truly willing to figure out which of these two is correct!

Your confession of having ZERO background of the Arabic language is further testimony to my repeated argument that you do not understand… !!!d look at both claims together, if you are truly willing to figure out which of these two is correct!

Your confession of having ZERO background of the Arabic language is further testimony to my repeated argument that you do not understand… !!!

Just because I do not know the Arabic language does not mean that I cannot read the translated versions of the Quran. I said that in reference to your question asking me to write a sura (but again, you have failed to respond to anything from http://suralikeit.com).

I mean, even you can't prove that the Quran is the word of God. Your only proof is that the Quran is revealed is that the Quran says so. That is your only proof.

That was the only proof that Antar gave as well. The reference is from within the Quran. Even I can write a book and claim it is revealed by including a verse that says the book has been revealed.

Let me tell you something Alhamask, when dealing with matters of logic, you have to be 100% sure of basic logical concepts. The first one being "circular reasoning". Look that one up.

[Alhamask]

First of all, I'm not an islamic scholar and I know absolutely nothing about arabic.

[/U][/B] Just because I do not know the Arabic language.... .

I have established my point anyway. Whether you get it or not is really your choice.

[Balqis]

[/U][/B]Just because I do not know the Arabic language does not mean that I cannot read the translated versions of the Quran.

There's no translation that can give the exact meaning of Arabic words
I too haven't learned the language yet but I study the tafseer, and from there you can understand the exact meaning or the range
You can't discuss Islam if you haven't gone through a tafseer and Islamic history

[Dark Angel]

I have established my point anyway. Whether you get it or not is really your choice.

No you haven't. All you did was wave your hands and say that I'm wrong. O_o

There's no translation that can give the exact meaning of Arabic words
I too haven't learned the language yet but I study the tafseer, and from there you can understand the exact meaning or the range
You can't discuss Islam if you haven't gone through a tafseer and Islamic history

Terrible argument. Isn't Islam supposed to be accessible to all? I'm pretty sure none of you know Islam at the level that Islamic scholars do. Then what makes any of YOU qualified to comment on it? Hmm?? Of course.. it has nothing to do with knowing the Quran, but it has everything to do with your faith.

[Balqis]

and who said is difficult ?
just do your homework

[saffer]

true to form - I have'nt read all the posts listed in this thread... I tried - but it got too confusing for little old me...

but I have a question - if the Quran was revealed - pre books - I assume therefore it has been passed down generation to generation until such time as it was written down.

Am I correct? if so - any idea how many generations or years that was??

and then my next question would be - if it has been passed down word of mouth - could there not be some errors or mis placed words?

NOT - insulting or knocking anything - just asking a question I would like an answer on...

pls n thank you

[Alhamask]

true to form - I have'nt read all the posts listed in this thread... I tried - but it got too confusing for little old me... :

If time permits, read previous posts in this thread, perhaps one or two might make sense to you.

but I have a question - if the Quran was revealed - pre books - I assume therefore it has been passed down generation to generation until such time as it was written down.
Am I correct? if so - any idea how many generations or years that was??

The Quran was written down on the early days after being revealed. There are three copies we have today that have been traced to that period. A copy in Turkey, another in India and I think another in the UK. One of the copies has got blood marks of the 3rd Caliph (a senior companion of the Prophet and one of the most senior figures in Islamic history). He was assassinated while reading it! This is more than 13 centuries ago. All these copies are exactly the way the Quran is read and recited today.

I hope other members can elaborate further on this point.