Did Muhammad (saw) Write the Quran?

[Dark Angel]

Proof! Can you tell us, at least by example, what kind of ''definitive proof'' is needed to support our claim that the Quran is the Word of God?

Something concrete like:

a) God coming down and saying he wrote the Quran
b) Something completely non-obvious and unknown at the time, like a mention of DNA, the double helix, hubble's constant, planck constant, etc.

Again, could you explain to us, the ''logical proof'' you are talking about to support our claim. An example would be helpful!

See above

DA,

May I know what can be that definite proof to be ? can you relate it with any example of that time which you beleif ( I mentioned from that time not any current )

And second one more thing are you worried from your beleif?

See above. As far as my belief in God, I do believe there is a God. But I don't claim that my faith is logical. I'm also a Hindu so "our" holy book is the Bhagavad Gita, which I look upon as a wonderful philosophical treatise on how to live your life, but I don't believe that it was sent down from God.

Alhamask and sysexpert,

Why waste your anergy trying to convince an unbeliever who does not believe in any verse from the Qur'an, any quote from Islamic site, any hadith? He expects you do justify Islam through science or VERDA? (I don't know if this is the right name for a Hindu book). What a foolish argument. I have penned off due to this.

Oh yes, I'm just a stupid unbeliever, right? It's funny that you call it a "foolish argument". Arguing logically is a pretty simple concept. Even people thousands of years ago, like the Greeks knew about it. The issue is not about "believing" a verse from the Quran. I'm sorry if you can't understand a simple concept like "logic". You can't prove something is the word of God by using a self-referential or circular argument.

Agreed antar , but i want DA to let us know if he is worried from his own religion thats why he is always a pointing Muslims and their belives.

I'm quite secure in my faith and I completely accept that it cannot be proven logically. You seem to be the one who is insecure in your faith because you want to go to great lengths to "prove" the divinse source of the Quran through logic. If you want to do that, then you have to play by the rules.

[sysexpert]

DA

a) God coming down and saying he wrote the Quran?

Dear for this you need to Go up may be in hell you will get the proof . Allah cant be saw by every one like the one in your beleives the pieace of stone made by your own hands

2) For Quran written or not just one question more to you tell first sura/ayat of Quran came to Muhammad SAW.

[Dark Angel]

DA

a) God coming down and saying he wrote the Quran?

Dear for this you need to Go up may be in hell you will get the proof . Allah cant be saw by every one like the one in your beleives the pieace of stone made by your own hands

Oh hahaha let's all make fun of the stupid idolator hahaha! Oh yes you must feel soooo superior because you don't believe in idols! Yet you believe mountains are pegs and the sun sets in a muddy spring. Yes, you have a lot of reasons to feel superior I'm sure! On another note, only an idiot believes that an idol is God or contains God. Just like only an idiot would believe a picture of a house is the house itself.

2) For Quran written or not just one question more to you tell first sura/ayat of Quran came to Muhammad SAW.

What?

[Alhamask]

To Antar and Sysexpert: I will not argue with u that branding any person with stupidity or telling them to go to hell when they bring up legitimate argument IS UNISLAMIC. Plz tell me if u think am wrong.

[sysexpert]

To Antar and Sysexpert: I will not argue with u that branding any person with stupidity or telling them to go to hell when they bring up legitimate argument IS UNISLAMIC. Plz tell me if u think am wrong.

Agreed, we should not brand but the kind of example DA wants do not have any logic

sysexpert added 3 Minutes and 8 Seconds later...

For Quran written or not just one question more to you tell first sura/ayat of Quran came to Muhammad SAW


What?

DA just a simple question what is the first Ayat (Verse) came to Muhammad SAW , If you are challenging Quran obviously you have the knowledge about it as well.

[Alhamask]

@ sysexpert, I will defend DA's opinion in this case as I have every reason to believe what he is posing has Logic in the the full sense of the word! And this is a new discussion evolving from here hence I wil start another thread for it. So, for this topic, lets concentrate on why we claim Muhammad (saw) did not write the Quran.

[Dark Angel]

@sysexpert

Bismillāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

@Alhamask

I think we are going around in circles so how about we end the argument where it stands?

[sysexpert]

DA,

remember regarding "question for Muslims" I told you many times you should know first before saying anything about it . This shows the same the verse "Bismilla IR rehman Irahim" meaning " In the name of God the All Compassionate the All Merciful" is not first Ayat (chapter /verse ) . If i will challenge Bible or even any religion I should know about it properly.

If you open Quran and look for the first sura its "sura -e- Fateha" but still this is not the first came to Muhammad SAW . Just try to Google and you get the answer your self for this threat if still not able to , I can tell you .

[Dark Angel]

DA,

remember regarding "question for Muslims" I told you many times you should know first before saying anything about it . This shows the same the verse "Bismilla IR rehman Irahim" meaning " In the name of God the All Compassionate the All Merciful" is not first Ayat (chapter /verse ) . If i will challenge Bible or even any religion I should know about it properly.

If you open Quran and look for the first sura its "sura -e- Fateha" but still this is not the first came to Muhammad SAW . Just try to Google and you get the answer your self for this threat if still not able to , I can tell you .

I'm not arguing based on the source of the quran or even whatever is INSIDE the quran. In fact, that's what I'm trying to tell you NOT to use. So this is a moot point and your argument is irrelevant.

[sysexpert]

I'm not arguing based on the source of the quran or even whatever is INSIDE the quran. In fact, that's what I'm trying to tell you NOT to use. So this is a moot point and your argument is irrelevant.

Still my quesdtion is same ?

[Dark Angel]

Still my quesdtion is same ?

And still irrelevant.

[sysexpert]

And still irrelevant.

This means you want to escape , so accept that you wrong

[Dark Angel]

This means you want to escape , so accept that you wrong

No, it means that you are asking an irrelevant question. It's like walking into a debate about astrophysics and asking questions about chocolate.

[Antar]

DA,

Answer these questions;

1. Do you agree that Muhammad was an Arab?
2. What was the relation between Arabs and Jews at his time?
3. Who do you love the most, your Mum, your wife or your sister?
4. Do you agree that an Arabic word can mean different things?
5. Do you believe that Qur'an verses can be translated differently depending on who the translator is?
6. According to you Qur'an cannot be proven scientifically, so do you agree that at Muhammad's (SAW) time there was no technology to prove what he was saying and as such it was easier to make people understand by telling them what they can visualize?

[sysexpert]

No, it means that you are asking an irrelevant question. It's like walking into a debate about astrophysics and asking questions about chocolate.

Da,

I am not asking irrelevant Question , it is relevant , problem is u know the verse and the meaning now thats why you are neglecting to answer.Firstly you dont know and you answer me wrongly and rapidly

[Dark Angel]

1. Do you agree that Muhammad was an Arab?

Yes.

2. What was the relation between Arabs and Jews at his time?

Ok, until they refused to accept Mohammad's new religion.

3. Who do you love the most, your Mum, your wife or your sister?

That's a dumb question.

4. Do you agree that an Arabic word can mean different things?

Sure. Just like any other language.

5. Do you believe that Qur'an verses can be translated differently depending on who the translator is?

Sure.

6. According to you Qur'an cannot be proven scientifically, so do you agree that at Muhammad's (SAW) time there was no technology to prove what he was saying and as such it was easier to make people understand by telling them what they can visualize?

I'm not sure what your question really means. You're assuming right off the bat the Quran was way too advanced for people to understand. You're actually assuming a lot of things with this question. But generally I would agree that putting things in simple words makes it easy for people to understand.

Da,

I am not asking irrelevant Question , it is relevant , problem is u know the verse and the meaning now thats why you are neglecting to answer.Firstly you dont know and you answer me wrongly and rapidly

I honestly don't know what you're trying to get at. The first verse of the Quran is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Only the claims that the Quran makes to its divine inspiration, and the claims that Mohammed makes, are relevant to this discussion.

[sysexpert]

Yes.


Ok, until they refused to accept Mohammad's new religion.


That's a dumb question.



Sure. Just like any other language.



Sure.



I'm not sure what your question really means. You're assuming right off the bat the Quran was way too advanced for people to understand. You're actually assuming a lot of things with this question. But generally I would agree that putting things in simple words makes it easy for people to understand.



I honestly don't know what you're trying to get at. The first verse of the Quran is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Only the claims that the Quran makes to its divine inspiration, and the claims that Mohammed makes, are relevant to this discussion.

Then DA,

Why dont you paste the first verse with meaning please

[Dark Angel]

Then DA,

Why dont you paste the first verse with meaning please

I'll come back when you've actually understood what the argument is about. Otherwise, if you want to continue this line of argument, open up a new topic.

[sysexpert]

I'll come back when you've actually understood what the argument is about. Otherwise, if you want to continue this line of argument, open up a new topic.

No need to open the new arguement as it is related to this Threat

If you do not have any problem why dont you past the verse with meaning please , why you are trying to escape ?

[Alhamask]

The logical question beckons that if Muhammad did not write the Qur’an nor get it from another human or collect it from other sources, then where did it come from?
There is undisputable evidence that the Qur’an is the word of God sent to Muhammad and by extension that he is the Messenger of God; and seal of the Prophets – no man shall ever be granted Prophethood after Muhammad.

The challenge, which is widely misunderstood by those unfamiliar with the Arabic language, is still a standing challenge and will remain that way until the end of the world. The Qur’an in several places challenges mankind by saying:

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]


And if you (anyone denying the Quran to be the Word of God) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]

And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) whichwas before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) – wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the Worlds. Or do they say: "He (Muhammad) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur’an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad) forged it (the Qur’an)."Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur’an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad) has forged it (this Qur’an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it if they are truthful. [Qur’an 52:33-34]

Despite these repeated challenges, the Arabs who were at the height of their poetic eloquence during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the shortest surah like it. Alqama bin Abd al-Manaf confirmed this when he addressed the Quraysh Tribe by saying:

Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we have seen such people and their spitting and their knots;
(i.e., signs of people who engage in black magic) you said, a mystic, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium, (signs of possession). Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.

This is a challenge that still stands today, as NO ONE has met it in over one thousand four hundred (1,400) years since it was first made. It is a point upon which we are asking you to ponder.